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07 June 2017 @ 06:35 am
What currently passes for conservatism in a nutshell (appropriately enough)  
"I do not support a livable wage."
sturgeonslawyer: Defaultsturgeonslawyer on June 7th, 2017 02:48 pm (UTC)
I wish to dispute your headline. This is not conservatism. Conservatism was Eisenhower, Dirksen, even Nixon; and conservatism in America is DEAD, and this is its mindless zombie revenant.

Edited at 2017-06-07 02:49 pm (UTC)
Elenbarathi: Abandon hopeelenbarathi on June 9th, 2017 05:50 pm (UTC)
I wish to dispute your objection: this IS in fact conservatism:
" In contrast to the tradition-based definition of conservatism, political theorists such as Corey Robin define conservatism primarily in terms of a general defense of social and economic inequality. From this perspective conservatism is less an attempt to uphold traditional institutions and more "a meditation on—and theoretical rendition of—the felt experience of having power, seeing it threatened, and trying to win it back."
sturgeonslawyersturgeonslawyer on June 9th, 2017 05:54 pm (UTC)
Of course, one may pick and choose definitions to carry forth any argument one likes. That's what makes life interesting.

But I grew up with a different thing called "conservatism," which was, certainly, pro-capitalism, but had some sense that workers needed a basic living wage and so on. Take a look at the Republican platforms from the Eisenhower years and see what I mean.

The Thing That Used To Be Conservatism is ugly, mean-spirited, and full of disdain for the working class (and even the middle class, which it seeks to dismantle).
Elenbarathi: Abandon hopeelenbarathi on June 13th, 2017 03:19 pm (UTC)
Yes, I know, but that's ancient history. I'm a year older than you, and neither of us remember the Eisenhower years; you might as well be talking about the Republican party during the Lincoln years. What we grew up with in the 60's and 70's was a pack of lies: 'conservatism' has never been about conserving anything but power in the hands of those who hold it.

In our actual lives - in the 40 years we've been adults in America - conservatism has grown steadily uglier, more mean-spirited, and more blatant in its disdain for everyone but the rich and powerful. This is not a change of attitude, however; it's just a deepening of the attitude that's always been there: "the purpose of power is power".
sturgeonslawyersturgeonslawyer on June 13th, 2017 03:25 pm (UTC)
I prefer to take a more charitable view.

However, yours is certainly tenable.
Elenbarathi: Abandon hopeelenbarathi on June 13th, 2017 03:32 pm (UTC)
My view is that charity to evil-doers is enabling evil.
sturgeonslawyersturgeonslawyer on June 13th, 2017 03:46 pm (UTC)
Ah. Well, you see, the thing is that I am a practicing Christian (of the RC variety, though very liberal for a'that), and as such believe in mentally separating the evil-doer (who is an image of God, however disfigured, and so worthy of respect and charity) from the evil act (which has no rights whatsoever). This does not mean taking a passive approach; for example, I think it necessary to remove You-Know-Who from office by any means necessary, to prevent further evil, even while respecting his personhood - something I am morally certain he would not do for me or thee.
Elenbarathi: Abandon hopeelenbarathi on June 13th, 2017 04:28 pm (UTC)
According to the Bible, Jesus forgives people if and when they repent of their evil-doing, and not otherwise.

No doubt Donald Trump was as innocent and beautiful a baby as any other. However, he is certainly a full-grown adult now, and he has outright stated that he doesn't feel any need to ask forgiveness for anything, so according to the doctrine of Free Will, he is freely choosing to be an evil-doer. As such, according to Christian Scripture, he is destined for Hell for all eternity.

Obviously, I am not Jesus, cannot see into the hearts of men, and have no power to either damn or save anybody, so the question of Donald Trump's 'personhood' as separate from his unrepentantly-evil acts is moot as far as I'm concerned. I do not believe in any sort of after-life, so I think his 'personhood' will cease when his brain-functions cease.

I do agree with you about respect, though. All those people mocking Trump's name, his hands, his hair, his skin tone, his assorted weird-but harmless personal habits, etcetera etcetera make me want to yell "GET OFF MY TEAM!" - what is this, grade school? Ad hominem arguments are the human equivalent of monkeys throwing their own poo because they haven't any better ammunition.
sturgeonslawyersturgeonslawyer on June 13th, 2017 04:31 pm (UTC)
Part of my definition of charity is, when I have said all I need to say, I let the other party have the last word on the subject. So it's yours.
Elenbarathi: Knowledgeelenbarathi on June 13th, 2017 04:34 pm (UTC)
*grins* Thank you for an interesting discussion!