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09 December 2014 @ 07:20 am
"Would it have killed her…?"  
Blaming the victim

ETA: Teenage girls are supposed to let the terrorists win.
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Kalimac: puzzlekalimac on December 9th, 2014 05:11 pm (UTC)
Something is missing here. It says, "Many of her male friends said it was 'girls like her' that made all women seem like cockteases." But a cocktease is a woman who leads men on to mislead him into thinking she's interested. In this account, she does absolutely nothing but repeatedly tell him no. That's not leading on, so the male friends' charge makes no sense even by sexist male standards. Similarly with the criminal-justice-class story. Something is being left out of this account.
A Wandering Hobbitredbird on December 9th, 2014 06:30 pm (UTC)
A "cocktease" is a woman who some man thinks was leading him on. A nontrivial number of men think that a woman is "leading them on" by existing in their presence, even if the woman has no choice about being there: for example, a high school student who is simply attending her assigned classes. Some men will twist even the clearest "no" into "she's talking to me, she must be interested" because their worldview doesn't include female choice. (Some but not all of those men will accept "No, I'm married/engaged/already have a boyfriend," but not "I don't want to date anyone" or "no thanks, I'm a lesbian.")

Thanks for letting me know that if a woman complains that a man wouldn't leave her alone, despite her telling him clearly to go away, you will look for reasons not to believe her.
Kalimackalimac on December 9th, 2014 07:40 pm (UTC)
" Some men will twist even the clearest "no" into "she's talking to me, she must be interested" because their worldview doesn't include female choice."

That, if it's the case here, would be the "what's being left out of this story." That would make it sound credible as well as horrible, and not just incredible.

Oh, I believe the woman who had the bad experience. Who I don't 100% believe is the blogger writing about it.

It's not an unreasonable supposition, and it's not limited to sexism. At least 80% of the time when there's a story - whatever the topic - of someone behaving in an incredible manner (and the "someone" here is the victim's male friends, not the culprit, who alas is not incredible), there's something being left out.

Classic example is the McDonald's coffee suit. Story: Woman drives away from McDonald's, spills her coffee in her lap, sues. Part that's left out: she wasn't the driver. The car wasn't moving. It wasn't just spilled coffee, but second-degree burns. McDonald's admitted fault, but then wouldn't pay: that's why she sued.

See? Something was left out. No, I don't take totally on trust the third parties who relay shocking stories when those stories don't make sense, whether that person be woman, man, or small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.
Marionweofodthignen on December 9th, 2014 09:47 pm (UTC)
I guess it depends on what stories make sense - narrative credibility. I don't find it incredible that people would dismiss her saying "no" as not firm enough; the argument that her talking to him at all was taken as leading him on in some way is all too plausible. I can envisage that situation, and I've read research about how males misinterpret the polite and kind way women are socialized to speak. She presumably didn't yell "NO! STOP TALKING TO ME!" in class. But then I've been called a credulous reader who can't spot an unreliable narrator.
Kalimackalimac on December 10th, 2014 12:29 am (UTC)
I don't find it incredible that people would dismiss her saying "no" as not firm enough

Neither do I. The gap in the story wasn't why the culprit kept pursuing her without any show of interest on her part; that, alas, is credible. What's incredible is that her male friends would claim she was leading the culprit on without any additional action on her part. Whether she intended to lead him on or not, which leads to your next comment,

the argument that her talking to him at all was taken as leading him on in some way is all too plausible.

which I agree with too. But there wasn't anything about that in the blogger's story. If that's what happened, it was left out.
she just wants to be kissed all the timeanne_jumps on December 12th, 2014 01:51 am (UTC)
What's incredible is that her male friends would claim she was leading the culprit on without any additional action on her part.

Why is this incredible, in eighth-grade boys?
Kalimackalimac on December 12th, 2014 03:59 am (UTC)
I've been an eighth-grade boy. Males in the training-wheel stage of attracting female interest (which some of them never get out of) are keen observers of female behavior in search of some clue as to whether they're getting anywhere.

They are also vast over-interpreters, eager to find signs where none exist. A boy himself in pursuit of a girl may continue to do so with no encouragement whatever, confident that he's irresistible; but an observer, even a male one, wouldn't call her the leader-on without some sort of evidence, even if mistaken. It doesn't fit with anything I've experienced, seen, or read.
(Anonymous) on December 10th, 2014 09:15 am (UTC)
redbird, I used to know a woman who told me about having needed someplace to sleep at a weekend event, making one of the guys who lusted after her (there were a lot) believe she'd sleep with him if he got her that space, and reneging on the deal once the space was committed to her. But since the guy in question was the least-attractive, least-socialized, and least-liked in our social circle, that just made the whole thing a good joke she could share with her friends.

I was rather aghast at this story coming from someone I adored, and said "That's not a nice way to treat people."

"You're probably right, Bruce," she said, and smiled. I eventually found out this particular head-game, and worse, weren't just a one-time thing for her. (I've had to come to believe she was probably a female sociopath. A very attractive, very charming, very glib sociopath who was excellent at -acting- like a wonderful person and friend.)

Yes, there are genuine cockteasers, redbird; it's not -always- just a guy who "thinks" a woman is leading him on. Thankfully, they seem to be pretty rare.

-- Bruce Arthurs

A Wandering Hobbitredbird on December 10th, 2014 06:16 pm (UTC)
The other thing is that being called that has little or nothing to do with a woman's behavior. Women are called "slut" not only for things that are praised in men (sometimes, a man with more than one lover getting upset that one or more of those women are also nonmonogamous) but for having large breasts before their classmates, or just as an all-purpose insult that sticks.

If an attractive man did the equivalent to what you describe, he wouldn't be called anything like "tease" ("gigolo" maybe, but that would apply equally if he did have sex with the woman in question). Yes, there are people, male as well as female, who use the suggestion/offer of sex to get other things. There are also people who will claim "but she led me on" when what they mean is "she accepted my suggestion of going to a movie together" or "she believed me when I said I wanted to talk more about XYZ, and asked me to leave when I suggested sex." If someone says "would you like to get a cup of coffee" and means "I want to have sex," one of the things that can happen is that they will get a yes from someone who wants coffee and not sex.
(Anonymous) on December 11th, 2014 07:41 am (UTC)
No disagreement with the first paragraph, redbird.

I've heard "cunt-tease" used once or twice for the male equivalent, but I think "player" would be the most common (though what "players" are playing for is frequently the sex itself, rather than other benefits or favors a woman might provide).

-- Bruce Arthurs
Kalimackalimac on December 12th, 2014 04:05 am (UTC)
Bruce, this isn't a question about whether such women actually exist. It's a question of male perception, and I don't find it credible that her male friends would tell her she'd been leading the other guy on unless she'd been doing something, however innocuous, besides just saying "no" all the time.
(Anonymous) on December 13th, 2014 01:38 am (UTC)
Kalimac, I was responding to redbird's statement: "A 'cocktease' is a woman who some man thinks was leading him on", not the larger question of male perception.

-- Bruce Arthurs