Log in

No account? Create an account
13 November 2013 @ 07:41 am
bart_calendar has a gender equality quiz for men. (Uses language)
(no subject) - Tom Jackson on November 13th, 2013 04:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 05:16 pm (UTC)
You had to ask?

To be fair that groping happens rarely in Montpellier, France, where I live - but that's because the local bouncers make an example every September when the new students arrive of the first asshole bro dude they catch trying to touch some girl's tits and word gets around quick.

But in cities without vigilante justice as night women get groped all the time.
Andrew Duckerandrewducker on November 13th, 2013 05:39 pm (UTC)
I've _never_ seen a woman groped. And I've almost never heard women talk about it.

I've read them talk about it online, including some friends of mine. And I believe that it's very common.

But I'm never surprised that most men don't know about it - because it doesn't tend to happen that visibly.
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 05:42 pm (UTC)
The reason it goes unnoticed is that the woman generally doesn't know if the groper has a bunch of friends in the bar and worries that if she makes a scene she'll get more abuse.

And gropers are really subtle about it, because they want to be able to deny it.

This is why I have no problem with the montpellier bouncer policy of beating the shit out of them in the bar and then dumping them on the street as a warning.

It's effective.
Andrew Duckerandrewducker on November 13th, 2013 05:45 pm (UTC)
Oh yes - but they don't even seem to talk to their friends about it, or at least not to their male ones.

Which means that it took until the internet took off for people to really become aware, so far as I can tell. And even then, it's taking a while...
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 05:49 pm (UTC)
Weird. When I'm in places where it happens women talk to me about it a lot. But I also feel like women seem to talk to me about shit they don't talk to other guys about.

I must come off as "nonthreatening male" in some weird way. Maybe because most of my friends are female?
Andrew Duckerandrewducker on November 13th, 2013 05:53 pm (UTC)
My friends are about 80% female, for exactly that reason.

But it was only within the last couple of years that any of them started talking about being groped, assaults, etc.
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 09:42 pm (UTC)
I wonder if it's because you don't hang out in pubs drinking often.

For me, because I like spending lots of times in pubs and am often there alone just reading a book and drinking I have to be on my guard, because there is always the chance of a group of drunk dipshits deciding to fuck with anyone - male or female - on their own.

Therefore I am always very aware of what everyone in the bar is doing at all times - to asses danger level.

So, when some girl gets groped I see it. In the same way that if someone is selling drugs I notice it (I bring this up since you've said before you don't notice when drug deals are going on in your local.)

So, maybe, just because I'm watching everyone around me and not just talking with mates I pick up on these things more?

Because, honestly, outside of Montpellier I see girls getting groped pretty much every night in every pub I hang out in.
Andrew Duckerandrewducker on November 13th, 2013 09:56 pm (UTC)
Aah, yes, that would do it. The pubs I've spend time in have either been university places or "old-man" pubs. Neither of which was terribly exciting.
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 10:03 pm (UTC)
That's it then.

The one benefit of anxiety disorder is you notice shit around you.
chasing the soul: flowerfronovapsyche on November 13th, 2013 11:32 pm (UTC)
The last couple of years? Date rape (which I count as assault [and battery besides]) has been acknowledged by women since at least I went to college, some fifteen years ago (before the official dawning of the Internet). Before that, in the '70s, women were expected to put out to bosses in order to advance; if you believe that groping did not exist during that era, you would be sadly & sorely mistaken. Women simply did not report their experiences for fear of retaliation.
Andrew Duckerandrewducker on November 14th, 2013 08:07 am (UTC)
Date rape has been acknowledged as _existing_ - most people didn't seem to have any idea of how prevalent it was, so far as I can tell.

And nobody is saying it didn't exist - I was saying that it wasn't being openly talked about.
chasing the soul: aballoonapartnovapsyche on November 14th, 2013 11:45 am (UTC)
I'm just saying that even twenty years ago, when I matriculated, date rape was commonly known (at least among the female population) to affect one out of every four of us. This was before the advent of the Internet. *shrug* That indicates to me that someone was talking about it.
browngirl on November 13th, 2013 07:31 pm (UTC)
In my experience, not least because of the Internet and the good side of pseudo-anonymity, we've been discussing groping, harassment, and assault a lot more in recent years. The first time I was groped I was a teenage girl and the only friend I tried to talk to about it said that was natural male behavior and I shouldn't be so sensitive, so I didn't say anything more about it till I got to college and met other women who spoke up. Even so, I rarely discussed the topic with men until I started discussing feminism online. Speaking of those debates -- if I had a dollar for every man who disbelieved my accounts, told me I was overreacting, said it was normal male behavior, etc, I could fly out to visit supergee. There's a lot of pushback -- and not just from men, as can be seen in the comments to bart_calendar's post. But the topic of women who support sexism for personal gain is a related but different topic.
Andrew Duckerandrewducker on November 13th, 2013 07:44 pm (UTC)
Yeah - online discussions allowed public places where women could speak up, be seen, and allow others the space to be heard. Which is fantastic, because suddenly there was a public space which validated a lot of things that had been held down for a very long time.

And slowly, thankfully, we're changing what is considered "normal" male behaviour. I suspect we're in for a bumpy decade or three, but I feel confident that things will continue to get better.

(I used to be one of the disbelievers - just because I grew up in a nice, middle-class family, where people were decent to each other. But when the seventh or eighth female friend confides that she, too, was assaulted at some point in her life you start to realise that things are really bad out there...)
browngirl on November 13th, 2013 10:10 pm (UTC)
I'm glad you've come to believe people. :) (And I kind of hope you said something about that to one or two of the first six friends.) It can be hard to believe that something is happening that one doesn't see -- I've been on both sides of that situation, and work to remind myself that, just as who I am including my demographics influences what experiences I have and what I notice, it influences what experiences I don't have and what I don't notice unless I make an effort to notice and to listen to those who report these experiences.
Andrew Duckerandrewducker on November 13th, 2013 10:17 pm (UTC)
Oh, to be clear I believed _them_ - but I didn't believe that it was a societal problem, I thought it was isolated instances.

But when you see so many isolated incidents you start to think that maybe there's a general problem.

And yeah, I still have to work at it (and try not to end up patronising people, because I like the sound of my own voice too much).
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 10:14 pm (UTC)
The sad thing is that the "nice middle class" dudes are more often than not the gropers - particularly in pubs/bars where they think the women are "lower class" than they are.
Andrew Duckerandrewducker on November 13th, 2013 10:16 pm (UTC)
Those aren't the _nice_ middle-class dudes. When I said nice, I meant it :->

Those are the scummy middle-class dudes who look nice from a distance, but turn out to be complete cocks when you get to know them.
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 10:24 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - Tom Jackson on November 13th, 2013 08:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 09:38 pm (UTC)
But groping is so common. I just don't get how it could be missed if you simply paid attention to what was going on around you.
browngirl on November 13th, 2013 10:07 pm (UTC)
I agree with you, but then, in my experience of Americans, it is amazing what we will ignore if we don't feel it concerns us.
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 10:08 pm (UTC)
But... I'm American - which is why I don't get why the "in America" comment happened.
browngirl on November 13th, 2013 10:18 pm (UTC)
Oh, I thought you were French? Or are you a classy 1920's style ex-pat? :D

(Honestly, being an American, there's no nation I'd rather snark upon. But that's another discussion.)
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 10:25 pm (UTC)
American living in France.
(no subject) - Tom Jackson on November 13th, 2013 10:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
bart_calendarbart_calendar on November 13th, 2013 10:55 pm (UTC)
We all learn something new every day!