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20 November 2016 @ 07:08 am
“That’s your education talking.”  
On Rural America: Understanding Isn’t The Problem

Thanx to andrewducker
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Xiphias Gladiusxiphias on November 20th, 2016 01:10 pm (UTC)
I've spent my entire adult life learning how to figure out what things are true and false, and learning how to talk to other people to convince them of things.

And I've got no clue what to do about this. I'm now getting to talk to some of these people on Facebook, and they just don't have any way of looking at the world which is conducive to dealing with reality.

Yeah. They're right. We coastal elites DO look down on them and don't respect them. I didn't know that we did, because I didn't know that they actually existed. But we have a large group of people in our country who hate us for our freedoms and are just not ready for democracy. They feel that us coastal elites are keeping them down? Fuck, yeah. And now we see WHY that is necessary.
Sarcasticia Nitpickersontisiphone on November 20th, 2016 03:12 pm (UTC)
Another problem: plenty of us "coastal elites" came from the white rural working class. Personally, I understand them just fine. I just don't agree.
Steveanton_p_nym on November 20th, 2016 03:55 pm (UTC)
Yeah, that's the skull-pounding-on-desk part; so, so many urbanites either came from rural areas or are the immediate descendants of people who did. I'm one; Dad grew up on a very rural farm and moved to the city as a young man the first chance he got.

-- Steve thinks this is part of a very old story of rural people claiming to be morally superior to urbanites, which dates back at least to the Roman Republic. It wasn't true then, and still isn't true now.
et in Arcadia egobooapostle_of_eris on November 24th, 2016 02:42 pm (UTC)
It dates back at least to the Biblical prophets.
El Coyote Gordo: buckysupergee on November 20th, 2016 05:46 pm (UTC)
The farm and the working class are good places to be from.
Sharon Kahndreamshark on November 21st, 2016 07:00 am (UTC)
And don't forget that a lot of us "coastal elites" actually live in fly-over land.

The split is not actually coastal vs heartland; it is rural vs urban. Looking at the electoral map on a per-state basis is very misleading. A "blue" state is just one where more than half the population lives in a major metropolitan area (and vice versa for red states).

https://www.inverse.com/article/24049-real-electoral-map-2016
Young Geoffreyed_rex on November 21st, 2016 01:43 am (UTC)
And meanwhile,
You coastal elites seem to think all is fine and good so long as you are doing fine and good. Fuck the millions of refugees and tens of thousands of dead in Libya, right? Screw Obama's hand-picked assassination victims, eh? Who cares about the massive surveillance and the torture of whistle-blowers, right? And more wars in Syria, Yemen, &ct?

You got yours, eh Jack?

Of course you don't care about the huge numbers of people in your own country who twice took a chance on a black President; it's their fault they decided they might as well look elsewhere when his heiress-apparent told them it was her or they were racist, sexist, homophobes who were too dumb to know what's good for them anyway.

Sure. It's all their fault, not you liberals', nosirree bob.
jere7my: Glassesjere7my on November 21st, 2016 07:21 am (UTC)
Good lord, a war in Connecticut? Why did nobody tell me?
Elenbarathi: Abandon hopeelenbarathi on November 21st, 2016 09:22 am (UTC)
"the huge numbers of people in your own country who twice took a chance on a black President"

What does that mean? How exactly were they "taking a chance" on Obama because he was black? Why does the color of his skin make him any more of a 'chance' than any other Presidential candidate?

Here iz me, eagerly awaiting your logical and non-racist explanation of that statement. Have at it; this should be most enlightening.

The fact that Trump's supporters are racist, sexist homophobes has been extremely well demonstrated already. The fact that they're too dumb to know what's good for them will be thoroughly demonstrated over the next four years. Have you heard about the planned cuts to Medicare? Wow, that was quick, wasn't it?

It's the blue states that support the red states, and we're pretty damn tired of doing it, while having our votes count for less. As for "Fuck the millions of refugees" - hello, isn't that Trump's line? Big admirer of Putin that he is - after all, it was the Russian hackers that 'won' the election for him.
Young Geoffreyed_rex on November 24th, 2016 06:47 am (UTC)
Enjoy your righteous posturing while you can
What does that mean? How exactly were they "taking a chance" on Obama because he was black?

It means that you (the collective you, who have a priori judged every Trump vote a racist/sexist/homophobic vote and nothing more nor less) need to explain just how it is those racist/sexist/homophobes twice voted for a black man for president.

In other words, your presumptions that Clinton's loss can only be because of the prejudices of the sub-human proles of Middle American is every bit as bigoted as your claims about them.

And frankly, thank you for illustrating my point. I'm certainly not going to waste my time trying to disprove your vapid attacks on my character or convictions.

But do go on trying to win over hearts and minds with ad hominem and blanket condemnation of whole groups of people based on the votes of 25% of them. When Trump's brownshirts finally do come after your white (yes, I presume) liberal ass, this Canuck will be ruefully noting that you got what was coming to you. My sympathies will lie, though, which those who went first, who you thrilled to think you were aiding as allies.
Johnjohnpalmer on November 30th, 2016 04:02 pm (UTC)
Re: Enjoy your righteous posturing while you can
It's interesting you mention the ad hominem fallacy because your first response in this thread sounded precisely like that: that all Hillary Clinton supporters were sure that all of Trump's supporters were bigoted, seemingly based upon how they didn't care about wars in the middle east, refugees, and the use of assassination (except, you know, with added collateral damage).

BTW: it's more proper to refer to "insults" - in my experience "ad hominem" is one of the most overused expressions in arguments and usually used incorrectly. If I say "you damn fool, that's not the meaning of 'ad hominem'" I haven't engaged in the ad hominem fallacy. I've merely insulted you. Now technically, "ad hominem" does mean "at the man/person" - and an insult is an attack on the person. But the fallacy only arises when an *argument* is challenged based upon the characteristics of a person.

So if I said "you misused 'ad hominem', why should we listen to anything you say?" I have engaged in the ad hominem fallacy. Your arguments are right or wrong on their own - not based upon whether you know the history of a frequently misused expression. It's also not always an insult. "Of course you oppose the death penalty; you're (Catholic; or deeply compassionate; or, had a friend/family member facing the death penalty)" - the point is the dismissal of the argument, based upon the characteristics of the person making it.)

Finally: once a person is evil enough, it's quite natural to ask what kind of person will support that person with great power and huge responsibilities. Thinking of "all Trump supporters" as bigots is idiocy. Thinking they're all *okay* with bigotry, serial sexual assault, and the use of law enforcement to punish a person one dislikes - okay enough to put such a person in the highest executive office in the land - is a bit more defensible.

It's still factually incorrect, though. A great many Trump supporters don't think about those things and don't care.
Young Geoffreyed_rex on December 1st, 2016 09:26 pm (UTC)
Re: Enjoy your righteous posturing while you can
What's really interesting is that you didn't bother to actually quote anything I actually said. If you had, you might have noticed that I was replying to xiphias who described themself as a member of the "coastal elites". My response was to people like them, and not a blanket condemnation of "all Hillary Clinton supporters".

Finally: once a person is evil enough, it's quite natural to ask what kind of person will support that person with great power and huge responsibilities. Thinking of "all Trump supporters" as bigots is idiocy. Thinking they're all *okay* with bigotry, serial sexual assault, and the use of law enforcement to punish a person one dislikes - okay enough to put such a person in the highest executive office in the land - is a bit more defensible.

You could make the argument, but I still think it's an idiotic one. Unless you would also accept the argument that all Hillary supporters *okay* with wars of aggression and the mass murder of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of brown peolple who pose no threat to the USA whatsoever.

It's still factually incorrect, though. A great many Trump supporters don't think about those things and don't care.

Ah. A great many Clinton supporters don't think about those things and don't care. Got it. Kind of like they don't think or care about "those" people that xiphias thinks "...us coastal elites are [and should be] keeping ... down."
Johnjohnpalmer on December 10th, 2016 06:11 pm (UTC)
Re: Enjoy your righteous posturing while you can
What's really interesting is that you didn't bother to actually quote anything I actually said. If you had, you might have noticed that I was replying to xiphias who described themself as a member of the "coastal elites". My response was to people like them, and not a blanket condemnation of "all Hillary Clinton supporters".

I might have noticed something if you'd written clearly about your beef. But you didn't. And I've gotten too old to listen to whiners who complain about how they're are SO MISUNDERSTOOD when they refuse to engage in productive dialogue.

Technically, that happened at the age of 13-15 - somewhere in that age range, farting is no longer hilarious social commentary. Alas, I did listen to them for years after that - such a waste!



You could make the argument, but I still think it's an idiotic one. Unless you would also accept the argument that all Hillary supporters *okay* with wars of aggression and the mass murder of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of brown peolple who pose no threat to the USA whatsoever.


See? Quoting someone can still mean the point goes *WHOOSH* over your head. And it's made clear by the quote. Which is kinda doubly ironic.
Experiencing Technical Difficulties: Danielresonant on November 20th, 2016 04:52 pm (UTC)
This is far too true

(substitute rural Atlantic Canada, and you have a milder version of it)
The Hebrew Hammercockhammercock on November 21st, 2016 06:08 am (UTC)
"For us 'coastal elites' who understand evolution, genetics, science…nothing we say to those in fly-over country is going to be listened to because not only are we fighting against an anti-education belief system, we are arguing against God. You aren’t winning a battle of beliefs with these people if you are on one side of the argument and God is on the other."

This. This is the reason I don't even bother trying to engage seriously with most people I encounter who self-identify as conservative Christians. You can't have an honest discussion of facts with them, because their ultimate argument is an appeal to $DEITY. I have a high school friend who is a conservative Christian, and she does seem to at least try to consider arguments from outside her belief system, but most of her friends seem utterly incapable of doing so, and always, vocally, because $DEITY.
Elenbarathi: Abandon hopeelenbarathi on November 21st, 2016 08:42 am (UTC)
Oh yeah, extremely well-said. Thanks!

Am I 'coastal elite'? My parents both grew up in a small Nebraska town. I grew up in suburbia on both coasts; went to school in Pennsylvania, lived ten years in Ohio - now live in Washington, in the only red county West of the Cascades. Clallam County is 'coastal' all right, but it's also very rural, and strongly pro-Trump.

I understand my neighbors all too well. They are really nice, kind, concerned people, as long as you fit the parameters for "Us", but it's all too easy to cross the line to "Them", and then they don't want to deal with you. It's awkward, because while casual friendship can work just fine, getting to know each other better may end the friendship entirely.

They're not illiterate, but they don't read either broadly or in depth. They're not stupid, but they have few critical thinking skills, so they believe all kinds of bullshit. They're not necessarily untraveled, but they've never lived outside of their social class. They don't hate the natural world - most would say they love it - but they tend to see it mostly in terms of 'resources for human use', and don't value it for its own sake. And they're not necessarily religious, but their world-view is shaped by authoritarian religion: "Do As You're Told shall be the Whole of the Law."

Logic does not sway them, and they don't really care about anyone outside their "Us", so appeals to sympathy for "Them" fall on deaf ears. They are peasants, hoi polloi; despite their cell phones and computers they're still the same fickle, volatile, ignorant masses that Pericles and Julius Caesar had to cope with.
eub on November 21st, 2016 09:43 am (UTC)
I don't know if this is critical to the cultural aspects, but "rural" doesn't give the right picture if what we're talking about is the anti-urban vote that helped Trump. The anti-urbaners are dominated, numerically, by urban-sprawlers and "nice little town" dwellers. Maybe to a Manhattanite that's all "rural", but to a rural person they're different.

To quantify, the U.S. Census calls an "urbanized area" a group of dense census tracts with 50K people or more. That's not super-urban, but it's well over a rural settlement cluster. In 2010, 71% of the U.S. population lived in urbanized areas, 29% in non-urbanized (as 19% in rural areas + 10% in clusters of between 2500 and 50K people.) Lots of Trump voters live within the purple here (set aside the green dots, they're the 10%).
et in Arcadia egobooapostle_of_eris on November 24th, 2016 02:48 pm (UTC)
I think it was Jon Stewart who said, They're the only people going to Heaven and they call us elite?